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Rane: Hello, my name is Rane and this is the Flow Artist Podcast. Together with my co-host Jo Stewart, we speak with extraordinary movers, thinkers, and teachers about how they find their flow and much, much more. But before we dive in, we want to take a moment to acknowledge and honour the traditional owners of the unceded land where this episode was recorded, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. We pay our deepest respects to the elders, both past and present, and acknowledge the emerging leaders within their community. Our guest today is Rita Mercer. Rita is a holistic mindset coach and a licenced counsellor with more than 10 years experience working in mental health and holistic wellness and over 20 years in human resources. She's also a mother, a proud grandmother, college professor, and and host of the Daring Well podcast. Rita helps support organizations, teams, and individuals to develop mindset strategies for growth, achieve flow state, and reduce stress and burnout. In her words, every day I'm surprised with new storeys of survival and strength, loss and courage, brokenness and restoration. I am passionate about empowering individuals to live their best life. Rita brings so much wisdom and positive energy to this conversation. We really hope you enjoy listening. All right, Rita, so good to finally get the chance to talk with you. I hope you're well today. Perhaps we could start by you just telling us a little bit about your background and where you grew up.

Rita: Heck yeah. Heck yeah. I'm so grateful to be here today. Nice to meet you, Rane. Nice to connect with you again, Joe. But yeah, so I guess a little bit about personal side, I'm a wife, I'm a mother, I'm a grandmother. I grew up in the US, and I grew up in a small college town in Southern Kentucky, so hence my country accent. I'm also a Christian, so I don't want to polarise anybody, but for me it's personal to my story. And so I feel like that's where I get my strength from. Everybody finds strength in, in many things, but that's where I get my strength from. And I feel like it's hard for me to tell my storey without giving honour to to God. So he, with tonnes of counseling, with tonnes of counseling, tonnes of coaching, tonnes of journaling, and just professional development books, like all those kinds of things, using those as ways to heal and grow, walking through some really tough times in like growing up in low-income housing, growing up in what would be considered as poverty. And so I didn't know I was poor until I got like a little bit older and like in high school, because we had all the things We had adequate housing, we had like running water, like, you know what I'm saying? So I didn't know that I was poor. We had the video games that came out back in the day, the Mario Brothers. So it's like, Mom did the best that she could to make sure we had the things, but I didn't know I was poor until we got into high school. I'm like, oh yeah, there's a big difference. And so just like walking through all those things in childhood, early adulthood, like trauma, walking through just so many hard things in, in life. And so when I think about all those things that I had to learn, like what it means to be broken. And so I can look at that when I think about working with clients, when I think about working with organizations, I can see systems that are broken and I could see ways to fix it really quickly. And so I think that trauma has become my superpower. And so I'm able to see that in, like I said, unhealthy systems, unhealthy relationships. And so all those different things. So I'm just grateful for my journey. So that's kind of personal side, professional side. So I am a licenced counselor. So I started out in human resources. So I did that for like 20 years. And then from there I did past 10 years. I, I started out doing wellness coaching and mental health counseling. And so that's something that I've also found as a new passion and love. So, so yeah, I just love helping people.

Jo: And I really love the, the beliefs that you share on your website, and I might just read them out now.

Rita: Sure.

Jo: Life is too short to do something that doesn't bring you joy. We're all perfectly imperfect beings and shouldn't be afraid to show our flaws. And you're in control of your thoughts, actions, and future. And I actually didn't know about your trauma history from speaking to you previously, because we were interviewing me and just looking at your website, like I saw a lot of the, the work you did in the corporate world. And so I was actually wondering if that was what informed these beliefs and what's your advice to people who are just not feeling that way at all in their current job?

Rita: Yeah.

Rane: Yeah.

Rita: So I guess the first piece of thinking about like those belief systems. So those belief systems for me, speaks to joy. It speaks to understanding and showing up with our flaws. So like being authentic, I think as leaders, I think in the professional world, we do a real good job of staying guarded. And so we're guarded on the outside, but we go home and we're stressed and we go home and we're overwhelmed. And so we have all of these things where we're guarded, so we're not authentic. And then control. I think the other piece about that is just like realising that you're in control. Like, there is always going to be systems, which we'll talk about that later today, but there will always be systems. And so you can't control those things, but there is things that you can control. And so being mindful of your power of choice, being mindful of the things that you have control over. But say that other piece of the question again, Jo.

Jo: Well, I guess to phrase it a slightly different way, sometimes people put up like this front. At work because it doesn't feel safe to show their true self with all their flaws and all these different facets of who they are because that doesn't seem professional. Or maybe it's just the kind of workplace where it's not very friendly, so it doesn't feel safe to like open up a little bit. So I kind of wonder like, what's your advice to people who maybe read this, but then don't feel like they're in an environment where it's safe to show up as their full selves.

Rita: Yeah. Yeah. And I would say that's a disservice to the employee. And I'm also gonna say it's a disservice to the company because they're not seeing the full spectrum of you. And so I think that's what makes us all beautiful and all unique is that we all have different life storeys and journeys that come into the skills that we show up with, the innate insights and abilities, like all those different pieces. And so if you're sitting quiet in the boardroom because you're afraid, like for fear or doubt, and you're just kind of like putting up this guard, like, I'm confident on the outside, but I'm gonna just stay quiet and I'm gonna just go with the flow. Like, you're doing yourself a disservice. By not showing up as truly you, even if it sounds like a stupid question, I think the stupid questions, what you think is a stupid question, is a brainstorm for the next person and is a brainstorm for the next person. And then they're like, oh my gosh, that's a beautiful idea. Let's put it all together. And then we got this whole new product. We got this whole new system that we can provide and deliver or service. And so it's a disservice. I think it's a huge disservice to not show up as your true self.

Jo: And the thing about the stupid question, chances are there's a whole lot of other people who are also wondering that and no one's like brave enough to put up their hand and say it.

Rita: True. True. Yeah. And I think sometimes people, I've definitely been in meetings in the boardroom where people are just talkers, like they just talk because they love to hear themselves talk. And so if you're going to say something, say something that's going to offer value. Not just to boast my chest out and just say I'm the big person and just kind of trading like licks of saying I'm the best and I'm the best. And it's like, okay, that's a huge, I don't know, sucker for the team and for the organization. Like it's a lose-lose. Like you make yourself look like you're something, but you're really not. So, So yeah, I think just be true to you and do it to where you're going to offer value.

Jo: And so just as a woman, like say it's quite a male-dominated space or all the people in like higher levels, men, and like another intersection as well, like as a Black woman, have you had the experience of being talked over in meetings or just not given a chance to speak? And what strategies have you used that have been helpful to like let your voice be heard?

Rita: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Joe, it's so growing up. So with reference to Kentucky, so Kentucky, so our United States, it's, it's so polarized. Everything is polarized. And so, but growing up in the South, which Kentucky's kind of on that border of the South. So the South is where they fought for. Or many people still to this day stand for slavery and what that means for my culture. Of course, every race has experienced some forms of oppression, but, but so the point being is I definitely have experienced it. Born and raised in Southern Kentucky, in, in the heart of the racism. Absolutely. And so I'm not immune to it. I'm not ignorant of it. It's a system. And I can't think of not one thing in this whole big world that there is not a system that's holding it together. Some systems are super broken, but there's many systems that are there. And so it's like, do you choose to ignore the system? Do you choose to be a part of the system? Do you choose to find ways to improve the system? And that's what I feel like my podcast, doing the wellness coaching, doing the counseling, Like just being a good human out in, in, at the grocery store. I feel like that's, that's our job is just to be a good human because the system will tell you to, to do it this way and hate this person, or whether it's for ageism, whether it's for sexism, whether it's for racism, whether it's for capitalism. Like there's so many different systems and it's just like, it, it, it is. It is, as a Black woman, I've experienced that working in corporate America. Oh, heck yeah. Many times I was the only woman in a, in the boardroom with a bunch of men. Many times I was the only Black woman. So like, feel like extra strikes against me, but it's like, I don't, I've chose, I found those moments where I'm like, okay, I can either shrink or I can choose to add value. And so I chose to add value and, and that's what I choose to encourage people to do through the work that I do.

Jo: I mean, that's amazing that you're not just standing up for yourself, but also putting all this energy into making positive change for other people. And then when it comes to supporting your clients, like, how do you support someone who is like facing a lot of those issues and a lot of those stresses that might be structural at work rather than anything that they're doing as an individual. But of course, you can only support them as an individual because, you know, you're just one person against those structures.

Rita: Yeah. Yeah. Always start with what the one understanding what's, what's the problem? Because I think validating that is, is huge. Whether it's my perception that, okay, it is happening versus another Black woman like, oh, it's not happening. I'm like, it's clearly happening. But so I think acknowledging the problem and so finding ways and places that you can feel safe to share those concerns because there's some places within the system like you just can't share it because it's not going to be productive. And so finding safe spaces to feel supported and validated, find ways to tune into hope, because the opposite of that is being discouraged. And so, like, we could choose to believe that the world is horrible and everybody is horrible, and— but that's not the truth. I do believe there's good people in this world. You are part of that. I love the opening line of your guys' podcast where it talks about we are caretakers of this land. I forget how you guys say that, but it's so beautiful. And so just reminding yourself of the hope The other piece is just kind of understanding where you can impact change. Systems are so big, it's sometimes hard to go at it from one angle, but there's always some angle that you can go at it from. So whether it's, again, opening the door for somebody at the grocery store and breaking down that barrier of the system, or finding ways to be supportive of a coworker that is struggling, and not to make— again, find ways to be not polarising within the work system, but find ways that you can be supportive. And that is a highlight for people. And so just finding ways that you can find ways to impact change. Sometimes we feel like there's just nothing I can do, but there is something you could do. So yeah, hope, and then finding ways that you can impact change.

Jo: And so do you have any like questions that you get people to ask themselves or just any advice of how do you know when to call it and when to just leave a job when you sense that a workplace is like really toxic and doesn't feel like the right fit for you?

Rita: Yeah, I found this random stat. I love stats because I feel like numbers. So when I worked in the HR, I always worked in dual roles, so HR and finance. And so numbers are always kind of in the back of my head always. So I found this stat. That. So Andrew Naber, he's a researcher and an industrial organisational psychologist. He calculated it based on working a 40-hour work week over 30 years. The average person will spend 90,000 hours at work over a lifetime. So that's a lot of time spending at work, and that's at like a bare minimum. That doesn't count like the overtime that people are required to work or the work they're taking home, and that's extra bleed over. But the point is like we're spending all this time at work And so how do you know when it's toxic? Sometimes you gotta acknowledge, am I toxic? Because there's no, there's not one perfect workplace, not one. And I think there's, I forget who says it, something like this, but it became imperfect the moment that you showed up. Meaning like we're all imperfect beings. Going back to the earlier belief statement of about me and just my philosophy of coaching is like, Show up with your flaws, but the just understanding, like, maybe it's me. Do I need to do some work so that I'm not burnt out and carrying my grief to work, carrying my stress to work, and then showing up with bare minimum to give, and, and then it's bleeding over into my coworkers and we're all naggy and we're all complainers. So one, start with me. Is there some work that I need to do? Because sometimes we think it's just the system and, and maybe it is. But maybe it's me first. So start with me. Am I toxic? Is there some unhealthy boundaries that I'm having that I'm not? So I'm upset that my boss keeps texting me at night. Well, that's a boundary that you should have set. I don't care if you're salary or not salary, like that's not okay. But so start with you and then understand within the system again, where are things that I can change? So sometimes we feel like there's nothing I can do, but there is some things that I can do. So maybe, and one, I guess, testing to see is the system flexible? So flexibility means that there is some room for growth, there's some opportunities for change. So whether I need to take that through the HR chain of command, or I need to speak with this manager and take it through that chain of command. And so finding where the policies lie as far as the change, and start there. Maybe it's, I need more training, you know what I mean? Maybe I, maybe I'm feeling like it's toxic or feeling like I'm trapped or I'm stuck because I don't have enough training. And so figure, figure out what are the things that I need to do. But there will come a point where you're like, I've done all those things and it ain't working. And at that point, you— I, I encourage people to leave gracefully. There is no joy and burning bridges. Because the same person that you burn bridges with right now, 10 years from now, you're going to be across from them at an interview table and you'll be like, oh crap, I thought I would never see you again. And here they are, the hiring manager for a new company they're trying to get a job with. Like, it's just, yeah. And so leave on good terms, leave gracefully if you've done all those things. To try to make that system work than all the things within you.

Jo: And I know sometimes it can be a little bit tricky when you have decided, okay, I'm going to leave, I'm going to look for a new job, but I don't want to leave my current job till I have something else lined up. And sometimes that can be a little bit tricky to keep discreet, especially if places want to know where you're currently working and want references. Have you got any advice for people who are like in that space?

Rita: Yeah, sometimes it is, it gets really tricky when you're trying to leave. So again, trying to leave it gracefully. So let's be honest with the interviewer. Hey, I want to be discreet as we go through this interview process. And so until you're making your final decision, could you delay contacting my current supervisor until we're ready to make an offer? Because right now, I mean, sometimes you got to go through 2 and 3 different interviews. Before you get offered the final position. And so being honest and saying, hey, I'm not ready to let my current job know, and you have to tell the reason why. You don't have to say, hey, my job sucks, because that's like making the new employer think, oh my God, this person's horrible, I don't want to hire them. But just be graceful on all fronts. Yeah. So be open, be transparent.

Jo: And say you're in like a different situation where you've actually been looking for a new job for a while, like you've been out of work for a while and like, I know you need so much enthusiasm and positive energy, like every new job that you apply for. Do you have any advice for tapping into that when like you've been looking for ages and you're feeling pretty burnt out from that process?

Rita: Yeah, looking for a new job is hard. It's like a full-time job in and of itself if you're doing it right. So you're applying hopefully daily and then getting— I think that's where the coaching, it could be really helpful, is finding out, get clear about who you're, what you're, what you're great at, like who you are, what's your values, what are your intangibles that you're looking for in the new job. So yeah, we want to be paid, like we're not signing up all for volunteer jobs. 'cause we got bills to pay, we got electric bills, we got housing, like food, like we have all the things that we have as needs. And so, but put that in the back burner for a moment and think about like, what are the intangibles that I can get from this job? So maybe that's, and so when you think about career satisfaction, like what does that look like? So I'm looking like, I'm looking for work-life balance, I'm looking for freedom to be creative. Some systems are not flexible enough to share openly, and so maybe that's a biggie. And so thinking about all those different pieces, what are your intangibles that you're looking for? Look for different resources. Look for a mentor. I'm huge about asking for a mentor. Sometimes you gotta pay for the mentor, but many times there's people, past colleagues, your neighbors, people in your community. That you vibe with, they might be a great opportunity for a mentor. There was an organisation I was a part of and I reached out to, and I haven't been active in, in that organisation for a while, maybe about a year or so. And so I emailed the old CEO. She stepped down and she's busy doing other things. I was like, I know you're super busy. I was like, but I would really like a mentor. I was like, would you be open? And I even threw it out. I was like, I'd be happy to pay you. And she's like, one, I don't want you to be— I don't want to pay— I don't want you to pay me at all. She's like, I'd be happy to do it. So yeah, definitely look for a mentor, offer to pay. I think that's, again, just being graceful. Look for ways to grow professionally. So maybe some jobs you're applying for, you're underqualified. Some, you're like grossly overqualified. And so, and then the, the hiring manager is like, I'm not going to waste my time because you're going to get the job and leave. And so just looking for different ways that you can be of value to the new hire manager, because at the end of the day, they don't care what you want. They don't. They want to know, are you an asset or are you a liability? That's all they care about. And so how are you going to help the company win? They don't care about all the stats you listed on your resume. They don't care about any of that. And so you're like, oh, I spent all this time on this resume. I had somebody to professionally edit it and write it. Like they don't care. How can you tell the storey that's going to show that you're going to be an asset to the company? And so, so yeah, hopefully that's helpful.

Rane: Yeah, no, that's great. And back to your point about not burning bridges, I know personally I've actually gotten a few jobs through people that I've worked with in the past. So yeah, I think it really pays to sort of like build that network and sort of I guess be a good person to work with so people want to work with you.

Rita: Heck yeah. Heck yeah. And I think at the end of the day, don't get discouraged. I kind of going back to that piece of hope. So looking for a new job, it's so hard. Like acknowledge that truth that it's hard looking for a new job. It's hard going to an interview and selling yourself, especially if you're not like this grandiose mind of like, oh, I'm the best thing since sliced bread. So sometimes it's like, You've got to be honest and share your storeys of how you're able to deliver on what they need. And so, yeah, don't get discouraged because the right one is going to be custom made just for you. And I believe that wholeheartedly. I've stepped into positions in the corporate world where it was literally a new job and I got to custom make it. And so, some people will be daunted by that. I don't want to do something that's never been done before. That's beautiful. It's a blank slate. I get to set the standard. And so, so I truly believe that what's meant for you is going to be for you. And so don't get discouraged when you're looking for a new job.

Jo: Back to your mentoring point, a good friend of mine actually got herself a new job because she decided which company she wanted to work for, and she actually approached someone pretty high up. There about being her mentor. And so, and she deliberately did this to get on his radar. So she'd have like a monthly mentoring session where, you know, she was asking for genuine advice, but also she was showing him what you're saying, like how she would be an asset. And then she ended up getting a job at that company through that connection.

Rita: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I coach a lot of clients that they their current jobs actually provide mentoring to ensure that people are growing professionally. And so, I think that's actually so beautiful, but I think there has to be a clear line because there's some points where the mentor is guiding you and supporting you and giving you encouragement and validation, but there's some lanes where it's like, what you're asking is really a coaching question for development. And so, just finding what lane you need to be in and get there because you don't want to over overstep, over— overcome— like, what am I trying to say? You don't want to overstay your welcome, you know what I mean? Like, you, you've invited yourself into the house and then you just won't leave. So I think that's, that's burdensome, especially if you want the mentorship to be life-giving for you. And so you want to use it for what the mentorship should be and then find other ways to get your other needs met. So whether it's coaching or whether it's venting, like all those other things are like not fully what a mentorship should be supporting you for. And so just making sure you're using it for the right reason. So it's not gonna be a shortcut that they're like, hey, I'm done with you. You're too much.

Jo: And so is that something that you kind of work out at the start of the relationship? Like, are we gonna have a coffee once a month? Or, you know, like, is that like parameters that both people set?

Rita: Yeah, I believe it's— it definitely should be individualised because everybody has different needs and have different goals of where they want to be and where they want to go. Yeah, so I think it, it looks different for everybody. And for me, I, I, I personally do— I, I have a 1-hour book that they book for the session, and then they get 2 either emails or 2 text messages, so outside ways that they can still get additional support for every 1 hour that they book. And so, so yeah, that could look like, hey, just do a quick coffee break for 20 minutes or whatever. And so, so yeah, those are different little quick little things that I think you need to be upfront of, like, what do you need? I think that's the other thing. Sometimes we come in the door and we're like, well, I don't know what I need. And that's a great place to explore that when you're meeting your new coach for sure, or mentor, and just letting them know like, hey, this is what I need right now.

Rane: Earlier you spoke about, you know, maybe people should be better at sending, setting boundaries, you know, in a work context. Do you have any advice for people who may struggle to be able to set boundaries?

Rita: Yeah, I think it's hard at work because we don't want, because there's so much fear. Like we don't wanna, we don't wanna lose the job. We don't want to make our boss mad. But many of those things are personal things that we're carrying into the work system. Like if your boss is gonna get mad because you set a boundary, like, one, that's super, that is toxic. That's unhealthy because it, it's not, it's, it's a very healthy thing to say, here's what I, when I'm available as far as time boundaries, here's the things you're gonna say to me and not say to me. I will never forget when I was in my early 20s, I had a boss, it was a small office, but they would literally, and I'm a very nice person, and especially in my 20s, I was really nice. Now I'm just like, I'm not going to tell you, I'm tell you about yourself. But in my 20s, like, I just, the guy literally cussed just for nothing. And it was like, that was norm. And I'm, and I, in the States, we have an organisation that we can file a complaint with as far as with the government. And so I end up doing that and I end up leaving, but I'm just like, in that moment, I'm like, this is crazy. And so like, that's a communication boundary. And so I think you need to be honest about like, what are your communication boundaries? What are your time boundaries? What are your physical boundaries? So I think as a woman, some guys think it's okay to be in your personal space. Like there's just boundaries. And so just things that you need to be honest and upfront with. And acknowledge the fear. Because if you fear that you're going to lose your job, then there's a reason that, that, that, that shouldn't be there. Fear for losing your job, for standing up for yourself, for advocating for yourself, for doing things that are healthy should not be there. And so I, I'd say again, find a coach, because it's— it is hard setting boundaries, especially if you grew up in a family system that they walk all over each other and it's just, that's our norm. And then you get into the, the workplace and the boss is saying, hey, come to my office, and you're cowering like a, a little kid and you're a grown, grown woman, grown man. Like, those are boundaries that you have not set in your personal life that's overflowing into your professional life. So yeah, it is hard setting boundaries, but the easier you, the more you do it, I feel like it's easier to do it at work because I'm not going to see these people, like when I go home, like for me, you got to have those just clear cuts. And so if you don't, if you make it not personal, like it just isn't like, just make it not personal, make this as a professional boundary. And so yeah, be really clear.

Rane: Jo's book, Eight Limbs of Aerial Yoga, is out now. You can find out more and even download some of the creative exercises from within the book. At 8limbsofaerialyoga.com. In the words of Nina Zolotow, past podcast guest and author of Yoga for Times of Change, "This is a truly impressive book on aerial yoga, a subject I knew almost nothing about before reading through it. The book is not only very clearly written and comprehensive, but it helped me to understand the surprising number of benefits this form of yoga provides, as well as how to make the practise accessible to a very wide range of people of all ages, body types, and physical condition. If you're a regular podcast listener, you'll know how much love and energy Jo has put into this project. And it also features wisdom from many past guests, including a foreword by Jivana Heymann of Accessible Yoga. Eight Limbs of Aerial Yoga is available at all the major online retailers or ask for it at your local independent bookstore.

Jo: And so say your boss is a bit of a workaholic and someone who does send those like 10 PM emails or messages. Do you just not reply to that till it's work hours or do you like do a reply that's like, I will get to this when I get to work? Like, how do you kind of deal with that in the moment?

Rita: I think a couple of different things would be helpful, especially if you're a people pleaser and it's hard to set those boundaries. I think as women, it's, it's so It's sometimes hard not to be a people pleaser, but I've worked with guys that are definitely people pleasers as well. But I think a couple of different ways you can set an auto reply on your email. That way it responds, especially because some fields, like, it's critical as far as time sensitivity of you responding and acknowledging those kinds of things. So, yeah, so maybe set an auto email reply. For me, I learned to turn on my do not disturb. I loved different workplaces where I actually had a separate work phone and a separate personal cell phone, so I could literally just turn my phone off. Make sure your voicemail says that. So I think, again, just being clear when your communication so that nobody is left in the dark of like, hey, I'm, I'm on, I don't work on Tuesdays and I will return your call my next business day, which is Thursday. So if you're going to be off an extended period of time, I think just communicate that. And so whether it's an auto message, just some way that sets that boundary so you don't feel— you may be always full of guilt, but knowing that you've done the right thing, you can release a little bit of that guilt.

Rane: Nice. And I know in Australia a few months ago, they actually passed a right to disconnect law. So it's actually ingrained in law here that—

Rita: What does that mean? Right to disconnect?

Rane: It means you, you, you have the legal right to just sort of say you're not going to respond to any emails or phone calls after, after a certain time. Yeah, I don't think it's, it's been, I mean, it's a fairly new law, so it hasn't really been, I guess, pushed in courts or anything like that. So, you know, and there's always ways around these things, I guess, but we'll see, we'll see how that goes.

Rita: That's good. That's good. That's a start. You're right. We'll see how far it goes, but I think it's a huge start. It's a huge start to acknowledge that there's a problem.

Jo: And I guess my next question is coming to you from a people pleaser.

Rita: I'm a recovering people pleaser.

Jo: So I guess, say in the moment, like your instinct is just to try and like make everything okay for everyone. And a certain amount of that is being good at your job. And sometimes that is where your job satisfaction comes from, like doing a good job and helping people. How do you sense for yourself where maybe it's gone a little bit beyond like a healthy balance of that? And now it really is something that you need to take a look at and work on because otherwise you're just going to get burnt out.

Rita: Say, say that in another way. I don't know if I understand it, Jo.

Jo: As a people pleaser. Are there ways to tell where to draw the line and where to challenge yourself to say no or to call a boundary and to not just kind of go into that instinct of trying to help someone just because they've asked you to, or trying to do the most?

Rita: Yeah, you're right. Sometimes we try to do the most again, cuz we want to make, and, and what's at the heart of people pleasing, like we wanna make everybody happy. And why do we wanna make everybody happy? Because then we feel like we're in control. And why do we wanna feel in control? Because then we, we feel at calm and we feel happy and we feel at peace. But like acknowledging, like, there's no perfect world where everything's always gonna be at peace. There's no perfect world where everybody's gonna be happy. Like acknowledge all of those things. But as far as burnout, I think coming back to you yourself and starting to ask yourself of like, How do I feel? Because it's your perception. So me and another coworker be sitting side by side at our desk, and one coworker is like, oh my gosh, that boss is so nice. And the next coworker is like, oh my gosh, that boss is so cruel. So it's your perception. And so acknowledge and validate that piece. Am I feeling guilt? Am I feeling shame? Am I feeling fear? Am I feeling doubt? Do I feel less confident? How do I feel? And so acknowledging those pieces and what do I need to do to work on healing those things? And sometimes getting with a counselor, a licenced counselor, because you might have to go really deep, or getting with a coach to figure out where those things are rooted in so that we can get to the root of the cause of why you feel that way. Because many times we're transposing how we feel in the workplace to something that really happened in early adulthood, in a past relationship. Or how we felt when we were a kid. And so thinking about like, where did that people pleasing or that gut trigger, like where did that come from? And so, so yeah, I think that's where you can start to set the boundaries is understanding like how and why I feel this way. Acknowledging how, how I feel, but then why do I feel this way? Where did that come from? Ooh, you know what? My mom used to always scream at me. Ooh, I remember going to school and my teacher would always pick on me, or my cop peers would always pick on me. And so just like, and so when I get at work, oh my gosh, I can't speak up because everybody's gonna make fun of me. And so I feel like I'm back in third grade in school. And so just understanding like, where did that come from? So I can heal that version because setting boundaries is hard, but if you don't know why you're doing it, you don't have the stick to it to keep up with it. You don't have the motivation to keep going, to be consistent. And so yeah, those are all really hard pieces. And so definitely acknowledge that, but, but don't stay there. Yeah, for sure.

Jo: That's really great advice. Thank you.

Rita: Yeah. Yeah. Burnout's a real thing. And I think just acknowledging where the burnout started. And so maybe that's from not having a way to reset. So again, not having boundaries. So I don't have a clear cutoff when I'm off work on the weekends or when I'm on vacation. Like some people work on their vacation, like, That is ridiculous. I refuse to work on vacation. That's my time to reset when I'm with my family. I don't want to get a call during dinner to, hey, just send me this quick email. Hey, I just got this quick question. And so, so yeah, all those different pieces of addressing the burnout, but it all starts with you. Like, you have to set those boundaries for your time. You have to set those boundaries and know that you're worthy of it. I think that's the other piece. Yeah, you might have a boss that's like, hey, I'm an overachiever, and that doesn't make you an underachiever to set boundaries. That means you're 100% present when you're there, and you're 100% present when you're at home with your family. And so, so yeah, it's a— burnout's a real thing, but I think being honest with what you need and where all those feelings, those triggers are coming from.

Rane: Nice. And I don't know, just in my opinion, not that it's worth much, but I'm just, I also think there's that maybe reflecting on what you actually want to achieve in your job. And it might just be, I want to make a stable income and, you know, I'm happy with that. Or I do want to go for that promotion, or, you know, I want to work really hard. And I think, yeah, maybe there's a little bit of reflection about that going on too, for me at least.

Rita: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we all want to achieve. I mean, that's, I mean, at the heart of the things, I mean, nobody wants to work, wake up and say, today I want to be a mediocre employee.

Rane: No, no, no. Of course not.

Rita: Nobody wants to be a mediocre employee. And the truth is many people are so burnt out that they start this mediocrity, and it becomes this whole quiet quitting. I'm just not going to respond. I'm just not going to show up. I'm just going to halfhearted do it. And that's a disservice to you, and that's a disservice to the company. And then you're carrying all this annoyance and frustration home with you into your other relationships. And it's a lose-lose for sure.

Jo: Another interesting one is when you're self-employed. So that workaholic boss might be you.

Rita: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely being self-employed, I've had to learn to have better boundaries. And so I try to make— so right now I'm in my bedroom. I got a little corner in my bedroom where I do the podcasting, but I try to be really sensitive of like when I'm doing work to do it in a certain part of the, the room, or I try to change clothing. So just sending different little signals to my body and to my brain that this is work time and this is chill time and off duty, not Rita the coach time, not Rita the counsellor time. And so, and we need those clear set of, again, boundaries to, to give us that moment to reset. And so yeah, I try to not be that boss to myself, because I feel like, like even today, I went for a nice walk in the woods and using that time as a way to reset so I can get into the meeting today and just be like open and happy and cheerful instead of walking in and like, oh my gosh, I had to work today. And it's like, you need to have a clear cut of when you're stopping. What's your clear cut, like drop dead deadline where because the work will always be there. You could catch up on all your emails and there'll be 20 more when you wake up the next day. Like, it'll always be something to do. So give yourself permission to kind of take a break and reset. And that's literally what self-care is.

Jo: Yeah, I found for us, because we've both had periods of working from home and working our own businesses, and like now Ron has like another job as well, sometimes we just have to get out of our house. Like we have to go away to have a break.

Rita: Yeah. Yeah.

Jo: Yeah.

Rita: And that, that's just the change of environment. And again, like I said, going from in, in my house, going from one room to the other room, like going to, from outside to inside. Sometimes I'll take my computer and go work outside, but, but yeah, like definitely going to another place and say, you know what, this is our free time. I'm, I'm absolutely not working today. And so sometimes I'll, I'll leave my, my phone in the car, which feels so disabling because I'm like, I use it for everything, even taking pictures. But it's like sometimes just leaving all those little signals that remind you of work, leaving those behind so you're not even tempted to dishonour your own boundaries. And so, so yeah, for sure.

Jo: And actually what you're saying, how you took yourself for a walk, I also find going for a walk is really helpful. Even if you, like, if you can't go for a holiday, at least get out of the house and get outside and go for a walk.

Rita: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Jo: And so you might have already started on this, but could you tell us more about the work that you do supporting people with stress management? And I know like a big part of it is self-care and finding balance. Like, how do you establish that with people? Like we've mentioned going for a walk, we've mentioned like leaving the phone in a different room. What are some other ways that you can help people just create a more healthy relationship with their stress? Because the stress is always going to come and go. Like, it's, you know, it's nothing you can eliminate from your life.

Rita: Yeah, stress is, is part of the human condition. Like, we cannot, we cannot separate that from being a human. But it's like, either you manage the stress or the stress is going to manage you. So that, that's literally, it's some things are not always black and white, like that polar opposite, but like stress management, that, that's That's it. And self-care, reminding yourself like self-care isn't taking a bubble bath or going for a massage or going for a holiday or vacation. Like stress self-care is literally the ways that you reset. And so at minimum, I tell people it's a 5-minute reset. So maybe today I've got meeting after meeting after meeting. So pause, you got 1 minute, 1, to get, take a bathroom break in between those back-to-back meetings. But then 2, like, take a minute just to pause and breathe. Just sit and allow yourself to just breathe. Don't use that 1 minute to cheque more emails. Like, literally use that to reset. And so minutes— so self-care should be done every day at minimum of 5 minutes. And so, like I said, we think all the big things— hair, massage— but yeah, 5 minutes, it may look like going for a walk in between your quick meetings. It may look like doing a stretch. I don't have time for a walk, so stand up and stretch. Maybe you already have a standing desk, but maybe you, while you're standing at your standing desk, maybe you take a moment and just literally do some movement. So kind of the flow yoga that you talk about, Joe, but, but just taking a moment just to stretch and allow that emotion and that tension and that stress to flow in and out of your body. So that's helpful. But I think from an organisational perspective, many organisations won't buy into it. Because they think it's too costly and it's unnecessary. But there's a cost to not doing anything, which equals the burnout for the employees. But also it equals like people that are going to be not engaged at the workplace. Again, this quiet quitting, you're not going to be able to retain or attract good employees, like absenteeism. Like there's tonnes of reasons if you think about like, the cost of doing nothing. And so self-care from an organisational perspective is important. Self-care from an individual level is helpful to, again, to reduce burnout, to reduce anxiety, to reduce stress. So many times I work with clients on the counselling side and they're like, oh, I got— I think I'm clinically depressed. And I'm like, one, they're like, I got this information from TikTok. And I'm just like, okay, first, don't diagnose yourself from watching a video on TikTok. I don't care what's licenced therapist because they haven't read your chart, they haven't did a, a diagnosis, they haven't did an assessment to fully understand like the scope of your symptoms. But, but even all that being said, like, it, it, it's really important to, to scale back and see like, what am I doing to care for myself on a daily basis? And so off-putting the stress, off-putting and offloading all of the, the heaviness that I take in on a daily from work and from home, from my friendships and from like all these different places. It's kind of like, I like to think about stress management like trash. And so like, we don't, I hate taking out trash, but I, but if you don't take out your trash, especially after 2 or 3 days, like it's stinking. I don't care if the bag's not fully full, like it's stinking. And so that's what's happening to your emotions, to your body. All that stress is getting tied up into your nervous system. And you need ways to reset. And so, yeah, it's important for organizations. It's important for employees on a one-on-one basis. So yeah, it's important for everybody to do their self-care, take out their trash.

Jo: And so what are some of the ways you can take out your trash? Like, I guess speaking to a counsellor is one.

Rita: Yeah, speaking to a counsellor if that's warranted, especially if it's severe symptoms. And so maybe not the word severe, but symptoms that are so problematic that it's impacting your daily life. So that would kind of be like, I guess, where I would say for that threshold. For coaching is more of like lighter stuff that's not truly impacting your, your, your work, your social relationships, like those pieces. Journaling, taking some time to just sit and journal. I think as adults, we're so busy being busy that we don't take time to just sit and unpack. So I try to do it on a, many times on a daily, but definitely on a weekly basis to sit and think about like, what went well, what didn't go well. So think about the meeting, what went well in that meeting, because it wasn't all a doom, like, you know what I mean? It wasn't all horrible. What did I gain from that meeting? What did I learn from that meeting? What could I have done better? Like, just taking times to unpack. Simple gratitude journaling. Super easy with gratitude, just starting with like— and I tell people, you don't worry about like paragraphs or long sentences, just bullet points, 3 things. But the whole rule about it is you can't repeat the same 3 things. So if you said yesterday that I was grateful for the sun, my family, my job, you cannot repeat that in the next 30— in the same 30 days. So it causes you to go really into like, what are the things that I'm grateful for? So it's the small things. I'm grateful for my little cup of tea. I'm grateful for, I'm grateful for the rain because there's some days like the rain is necessary. I'm grateful for technology because it makes my life so easy. I'm grateful for my little candle. Like it's, it's literally the small things you have to pause. And be intentional about what, what research talks about. Like, it's hard to be stressed and anxious and overwhelmed and burnout as you're feeling grateful. Like, it occupies two different parts of your brain. And so what it does, it helps you, helps to prime your brain to look for the good. And there's so— if you can turn on the news, like, from moment to moment, you keep clicking, you'll find plenty to be sad about, plenty to be overwhelmed about, plenty to feel dread and doom about, but it'll cause you to look for the good because there is good in our world and you just have to be really intentional to look for it. For sure.

Jo: And I guess this is a bit of a different tangent. We've spoken about like some of the challenges with being an employee and with being self-employed. Say that's been your work experience. But you're kind of becoming more and more in a position of leadership, or say you're self-employed, but you're taking on another person to help you, but maybe you don't feel like you've had great examples of what being a good boss looks like, and you don't want to create a toxic workplace yourself, but also you're a people pleaser. You don't like, it's not all about making your new employee feel good or making the person that you're meant to be leading You know, you want to be a leader for them. So what are some ways to be a good leader or a good boss or to create like a more positive culture at work, especially if it's not something you've had a good example of that you can draw from?

Rita: Yeah. Yeah. Mentorship again is helpful and you don't, and so I've never met Oprah, but people love and people hate her. Like that's fine. But the point is I've never met her. but she's one person I would consider a mentor. And so mentorship, like have a mentor, like you've gotta have Bob Proctor. I think the dude's dead, very dead. And so, so like there's people that I consider mentors that I, I've never physically have talked to, but I get their information and that's life-giving for me. So definitely mentorship. The other thing, books. One other good book that I love, it's an oldie but goodie. It's called Good to Great by Jim Collins. And it, it just walks through different ways that organisations were able to, to expand and grow. And it also shows the comparison of organisations that were not able to expand and grow because they were not flexible. And so finding ways that you can be flexible. Let's see what other things. I think I lost train of thought. Let's see. Ask me that question again, because I lost train of thought thinking about some other things.

Jo: Oh, well, you've given some good examples already. I guess it is, how do you be a good boss if you haven't had an example of a good boss?

Rita: Yeah. So the book, books, resources, like mentorship. What else? Just time to reflect. You have to take time to self-reflect or you will never understand like what you're doing well. Sometimes we're going so fast that we don't know our head from our tail, and so like slowing down. For a moment, being flexible, kind of like what I was saying about the toxic workplace. Like, so being flexible and being open to receive feedback. And so feedback from your employees, but also feedback from just observing, that is information. Sometimes, again, we're going so fast that we don't take time to just take it in. Like, how is this flowing or not? And so, and taking ways to be, and with that flexibility, you're able to make change. And don't be so rigid and so like, I'm, I'm so married to this idea that I can't change it. Like, that's a disservice because some things are just for a season. So season being one month, season being one year, but you have to be adaptable and flexible. So I think all those different pieces. Yeah. Having a mentor either in life or somebody that you just take that information from, that is left books on and those kinds of things, but taking time to reflect and journal, like all those different pieces.

Jo: And so my next question is about your own podcast, Daring Well, and that's how we met. I was a guest on your podcast. I really enjoyed the conversation, so I wanted to keep talking to you. Could you tell us about your podcast and like maybe what's the best lesson or the best inspiration that you've learned from a guest?

Rita: Yeah, Joe, when you sent me that question, I was like, how in the world? So I'm like, it's almost asking— I have two children. It's almost asking like, which one is your favorite? And over the years I've had so many guests and I've learned so much from each one. A lot of times, because it's talking about wellness from different perspectives, I've had guests talk about financial wellness, nutritional wellness. Menopause. I've had guests talk about physical wellness. Had a guy recently, he has— his episode hasn't aired live, but we talked about just different ways that he's been through some different traumas in his life. And again, he takes— took that— took that pain and used it for purpose. And so he does a lot of like weightlifting and just using that. It was— I think he called it Savage Savage Chill. And I was like, oh my gosh. I was like, one, I like the name. I was like, but tell me. It's like just basically like this tough mental toughness that you have to have, but also this balance of being relaxed and chill. And so, yeah, I've had so many guests. I had one guy that was from New Zealand and he, well, actually he's from the States, but he lives in New Zealand now, but he talked about energy attachments, which I was like, okay, maybe that might be too woo-woo for me, but let's figure out how this makes sense because I'm intrigued and I think it could be helpful for everybody. But he talked about just different ways that energy attaches to us. And then, but it's also tied to fear. He called them energetic parasites. And I was like, like, one, that's a catchy like phrase, but just like the idea that it does feel like some things just latch on to you. Like, you ever walk into a room and you're like, oh gosh, I feel this heaviness, or I feel all of a sudden I feel fearful. And I'm like, I'm a confident person. Where did all this come from? And so I thought that was cool. But the first person that came to my mind when you asked me that question on, as I was preparing, I thought about my first guest. So the podcast has been going on for 2 years and the first guest came on and her name was Jessica Graham. She lives in Europe somewhere in a little bitty country, but she talked about her story. And she— and the whole tie-in for her, she talked about her trauma. Not that everybody has to talk about trauma, but she talked about her trauma, but also how she is now using that. She used to be a teacher, like a school teacher for kids, and now she uses her storey to talk about marketing and to help entrepreneurs share their brand story. And so she teaches and she talks marketing, and she weaves that all to, to talk about brand stories. And so for her, what I learned from her, again, her being my first guest, the very next episode, because I always talk about wellness from, from multiple perspectives, that next episode I chose to share my story. And so I felt so inspired by her being vulnerable, so inspired by her lot, just staying tied to her pain, but using it for purpose and the way that she does it with like her clients now. And I was like, okay, I'm going to— that's what I do. But I'm like, I've never thought about how to like spell that out. And so I was inspired by her to do that. And then for you, Joe, just, I was inspired one by your positive energy. Like you are just like a bright spot in the world. Like you are just so sweet, so energetic, so positive, so much positive energy. But I walked away, I'm like, because at first I'm like, what is aerial yoga? What is that? And so I didn't really know and I didn't want to research. And that's what I try not to do when I'm preparing for guests, because I don't want to come in with so many preconceived ideas that I don't, that I don't have any room to expand. And so I want to be curious and open as if I'm hearing it for the first time. And so when you were sharing, I'm like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. But just, I walked away with just kind of from our talk is just ways to just have gentle movement, ways to just tune into your body at whatever variance that you can. Because some days we have a huge range of motion and some days not so much. And I love that you shared, like, just start where you're at. And so at least that's what I took away from it. And so, and so, because I think for me, I'm not a super skinny gal, and so thinking about yoga sounds intimidating, but the way that you said it, which I've done it a few times, but the way that you said it, I'm like, oh my God, this sounds like something I could totally invite into my life. And so, yeah. So for every guest I have learned and walked away with every something new, something, or something old that has become new. I think that's what's too, that's been beautiful too. So yeah, I've loved the Darnell Podcast, but yeah, I talk about wellness from any perspective, in every perspective. So the Darren Will podcast, thank you for giving a shout out for that.

Jo: And I felt like very inspired and very uplifted after speaking with you as well. So yeah, I got the positive energy flowing back to me for sure.

Rita: Heck yeah, heck yeah.

Rane: All right, well, we have one final question. We ask this to everyone on our podcast. So I guess if you could distil everything that you've learned and everything that you like to share into one core essence, what do you think that one thing would be?

Rita: I don't know if I understand the question. Do you mind to say that again?

Rane: So I know it's a bit of a big question, I guess, but if you could take everything that you, you've learned in your life and everything that you like to share with the world, if you could bring that down to one core idea, what do you think that would be?

Rita: Hmm. I think it's hard to just be, to have one thing. So maybe a couple of things, but I think wellness is important. And I think some people think wellness as, again, I'm not a super size one person. I think wellness is for everyone. It's wellness from a financial perspective, financial wellness. I think wellness from an emotional perspective. I think wellness from a physical perspective as far as movement. I think wellness from an environmental perspective. I think so. Wellness is something that applies to everyone, and it's not just, oh, I gotta eat well, or I have to be a size zero, and I have to exercise every day. Like, wellness is how you treat your body, how you treat your mind, how you show up in relationships, how you show up on your job. Wellness. And so for me, and that's what Daring Well is all about, is daring. And so it's, it's hard. Life is freaking hard. And so it takes courage to show up, to be brave. And so daring, so dare to be well, dare to line, line up with wellness in whatever way and capacity that looks like. So if you ain't got no legs, like, you got arms. And if you ain't got no arms or legs, like, you got a mind. And so you got a breath, you got— you have lungs. And so there's some way you can tune into wellness, some way that you can find ways to, to be well and, and live it out your everyday life. So it's not just a diet, it's not just a simple yoga movement, but it's literally how you show up and how you flow. Literally, your, your podcast name. It's how you flow with, with your whole life, with your whole being, with your whole essence. And so absolutely, if I had to sum it up to one thing, it would be wellness. It's for everybody. Beautiful.

Jo: Beautiful. Amazing summary. Thank you so much.

Rita: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Rane: All right. Well, yeah, thank you so much. It's been great talking with you and—

Rita: Oh, thank Thank you.

Rane: Yeah.

Jo: And we'll be sure to put your podcast link and all your other details in the show notes if people want to learn more from you.

Rita: Heck yeah. Heck yeah. And if somebody wants to do a free consultation, whether it's from an organisational perspective or a one-on-one perspective, you can go onto the website at darrenwill.com, or you can just simply email me at info@darrenwill.com, and I'll get you all the information that you need. But yeah, I definitely do. Phone consultation so that way we can explore like what are the needs, is there a good fit, all those different pieces. So, so yeah, I'm happy to help anyone find ways to be well with their mindset, with self-care strategies, all those different pieces.

Rane: Beautiful. Thank you so much for tuning into the podcast. We hope you enjoyed our conversation with Rita. We've included a link to her website and podcast Daring Well in our show notes, and you might enjoy the episode she recorded with Jo. You can find me on Instagram as @ranelovesyoga and Joe at @gardenofyoga. We love hearing from you, so feel free to reach out and share your thoughts. Thanks to Go Soul for generously granting us permission to use their track Baby Robots as our theme song. Head to gosoul.bandcamp.com to discover more of their incredible music. Incredible music. We are grateful to our wonderful Patreon supporters. Your generous contributions help us cover the cost of editing and producing this podcast. And thank you to everyone who listens and shares about our work. He aroha nui māua kia koutou katoa, sending you big, big love.