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Rane: Hello, my name is Rane Bowen and this is the Flow Artist Podcast. Together with my co host, Jo Stewart, we speak with extraordinary movers, thinkers and teachers about how they find their flow and much, much more. In this episode, we are delighted to be speaking with Jivana Heyman. He is a source of much inspiration for both myself and Jo, and if you're a longtime listener, you'll know he's also a favourite guest of ours. Jivana is the founder and director of Accessible Yoga and the author of Accessible Poses and Practises for Every Body Yoga Building A Practise of Courage and Compassion and the Teacher's Guide to Accessible Best Practises for Sharing Yoga with Every Body. Over the past 30 years of teaching yoga, Jivana has focused on welcoming all people to practise and celebrating our individuality and about our differences. His work has focused on dismantling ableism in the yoga world as well as emphasising the intersection of yoga and social justice. His books, classes and training support yoga teachers and yoga therapists in finding ways to bring creativity and collaboration into their teaching while still respecting the ancient yoga tradition. You'll hear us talk about all these themes in the upcoming episode, as well as some powerful personal insights and triathlon talk. But before we dive in, we want to take a moment to acknowledge and honour the traditional owners of the unceded land where this episode was recorded. The Wanderi people of the Kulin nation. We pay our deepest respects to the elders, both past and present, and acknowledge the emerging leaders within their community. Let's get into the conversation with Jivana. Jivana, it is so good to have you on the podcast again. It's been a little while, so perhaps you could first start by telling us how are you and what have you been up to?

Jivana: Oh, hi. It's so good to be back. I know. How long has it been? I should have looked.

Jo: I know I looked. It's since 2019.

Jivana: Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Really? That's a really long time. The world's changed so much. I'm a lot older.

Jo: As are we.

Jivana: No, actually, I'm good. I'm really good. I think, you know, life's challenging but things are going well and I feel grateful to be alive and, you know, be talking about with you, both of you, who I really love and admire and I'm excited to be coming to Australia, get to meet you physically in person and yeah, to get to teach and practise yoga is still a great honour. And yeah, I'm. I'm good. I'm. I'm Doing a lot of exercising, but I'm kind of obsessed a little bit. I just did my first triathlon and that's where my head is at a lot these days. In fact, it's been raining for the last two days and it's really kind of making my head spin because I'm just used to being outside all day these days.

Jo: But yeah, yeah, I actually am really interested in your triathlon practise. So, like, I'm interested to know, like, firstly, what drew you to this sport? And also, has your yoga practise helped your triathlon training?

Jivana: Oh, totally. I mean, I. I think I actually started with COVID you know, then I was. I was home so much. I used to travel well. In fact, in 2019, I had been scheduled to come to Australia and I had set up. I think you were helping, maybe. We had set up programmes and everything and people registered, you know, the kind of. I was travelling basically full time, teaching all over the world and then it kind of just fell apart and. And it was kind of amazing in a way because I just. My life slowed down and I got to be home and I started. I started walking on the beach every day. I live about three miles from the beach, so I would. At first I would drive down, but then eventually I got a bike and I would bike to the beach and walk on the beach. And then I. But I wrote an article about this. I can link to it, so you can share it if you want. But I saw this older guy, he was definitely in his 80s and I still see him. He runs almost every morning on the beach and I would be walking and I would think, wow, if he could do that, I could do it. And that's just. He really inspired me. So I started trying to run and I just got into it and then I just. More and more time. I think it had to do with being outside, honestly, just, you know, nature heals everything and it just was like a bomb to my soul and I wanted to be outside more and more. And I live in Santa Barbara, which is, you know, really nice weather most of the year, so I could spend. I could spend most days outside and I would, I, I started it, it just became hours. Like, I was just. I would be biking and then running for, like. And walking, you know, for hours. And then the swimming was harder. That was hard. But triathlon is, you know, swim, bike, run. One year I saw a triathlon happening at this beach where I go every day right here. And I was, again, I was really inspired by them by just watching these People who just seem like me, like, they just seem like regular people and not like my idea of what athletes look like, you know. And then again, I thought, well, you know, that reminds me of accessible yoga and kind of letting go of my preconceived ideas of, like, what it is to be an athlete or what it is to be a yoga, a yoga practitioner. And so I had to kind of check myself and realise, wow, you know, maybe, maybe I could do that too. That's great.

Rane: Have you been much of a runner in the past?

Jivana: No, I, I actually had back problems, I think, from. I used to be a professional gardener, so I used to be outside a lot. Like, I, I, you know, to try to make a living. I was gardening a lot and it really wrecked my back and so running was really hard for me. But I think my yoga practise over the years has helped of rebuild my strengths and running wasn't so bad anymore. And it's very meditative and I think that's the part where the yoga really fit in. I just felt that it was a way of actually being in kind of a flow, like your podcast to Flow artist, to be in a flow. Like, I wasn't always in a flow, but it was a, you know, a meditative practise. Biking and running both, and walking for me are both very meditative because they're so repetitive. These repetitive physical movements are actually a very, they're very calming to my nervous system, I found, which surprised me. I didn't expect that. And it also made me feel better, you know, like, I just felt like I was getting stronger and I'm getting old. Like I'm 58, so it just felt like I kind of, I, I felt that happening, you know, a lot beforehand. And this has been a way to kind of get energy back. So that's been nice.

Jo: I have heard as well, like, often when we're talking about bone density, people go to, like, lifting weights. But actually the action of like, impact kind of stuff like running, where your feet strike the ground, is also really good and important for bone density.

Jivana: Yeah, it's hard on my bones too, though. It's so funny how there's this, like, balance between, yeah, strengthening your bones but also not injuring your joints. Because I think as we get older, like, that's where the danger comes. And I, what I found for me is running on the beach in the sand is actually really helpful. It's, it's harder in a sense, but it's less impactful on my joints. And then I did a 5k this past weekend. And so we're running on the, you know, pavement. And I really felt it for days after. Like, I was really sore compared to, you know, I run almost that much on a sand all the time, but it just felt much harder to do it on the pavement.

Jo: Yeah. And I think, like, what you're saying, it's that balance. I think that is how it makes your bones stronger because it kind of stresses them a little bit, so they have to, like, build more strength. So I guess next time do you have to do a little bit more pavement training, so. So that doesn't feel like such a shock.

Jivana: Yeah, I just don't like it as much. I like to run on the beach, but I. Yeah, I need to run on the sidewalk or something more. But I also had been doing weightlifting too, just because of that. Because of what I know about muscle loss as we age. They say you lose about 1% of your muscle mass every year after your 30s, which is really shocking unless you actively work on it, you know. So I just hadn't really been doing that because still. And my asana practise is still rather gentle. Like, I just wasn't interested in changing my yoga practise, really. I mean, like, I think people do find that in yoga, like power yoga, whatever, but that wasn't really my style. I just felt like I could have that and. Which supports me. I think it helps me physically as well, in terms of recovery, in terms of being more conscious of my body when I'm doing these things. I don't. I don't think I have as much injury because of that as. As I would have if I'd started doing this at this late age.

Jo: And it makes sense. It's like you do these different things to get different benefits out of it and you get different states of mind. It's not like you have just found the perfect meal and you're going to eat that for every single meal. It's like variety is important and.

Jivana: Is important. Yeah, that's. That was fun too. I think I have a very. I have a very, very busy mind, so I think the variety helped. And so doing, like, often, many days, I would do on my own, I would do bike, run and swim. Just as. Just like a practise, like, I would just go to the beach, I bike to the beach, then I would run and then I would go swimming. And then that's basically, I realised that's what a triathlon is. So I. But the swim was hard. I mean, I. I liked swimming. I thought I Did but swimming the distance in the ocean is just very hard and I'm still struggling. I only, I, I really had set that in my head that I would do the triathlon and I'm not sure I think I'll do it again next year but I don't really want to do longer ones. It was a relatively short course but like long swims are rough. I don't know if you all swim.

Jo: I do, but in a pool and I kind of like it best when I'm the only person in the lane. So the idea of being in the ocean with a bunch of other people around and not like lane ropes just show you which way to go. Sounds like a very different head space.

Jivana: Yeah. And also sharks. Yeah.

Rane: No, that's not fun. I mean I. Extra motivation for swimming fast. But I think we're, we're very lucky to live a, a five minute walk from, from the local aquatic centre.

Jo: So we love, it's actually like our Sunday self care. Like we do like a swim and then sit in the spa and then sit in the sauna and that's how we set ourselves up for the weekend.

Jivana: Yeah, no, I'm not, I'm not really a swimmer. So that was, I mean I used to surf a long time ago when I was younger, but I liked the ocean. I like to jump in and then out. Okay. I have to actually swim a distance. And the thing is it's actually the Pacific is very cold so I tried, I had to get a wetsuit and I. And, and it's like it's very murky too, so you can't see. I couldn't see my arm. So when you're doing a stroke, I couldn't see that on my hand. Like I, the, the visibility most days was like two feet or what, you know, so it's like it's cold and it's dark and it. But that also made me think about yoga because I was thinking it's like a sense, you know, sensory deprivation experience. It was like sense withdrawal because when I'm swimming I couldn't see anything, I couldn't hear anything and I was freezing. It was really cold. So really challenge. That was the hardest part for sure. Definitely.

Jo: So we'll flow on to some more yoga talk. But I really loved hearing about your triathlon experiences.

Jivana: Yeah, sorry.

Jo: No, it's really interesting and I think it is really good for people to. Sometimes when you love yoga so much and you teach it and you do it, it's your whole movement world and sometimes your whole social world. As well. So I think it's kind of an important thing to do to, like, branch out and try other things and kind of get out of your comfort zone a little bit and do things that challenge you in different ways and maybe.

Rane: Find the yoga and those other things.

Jo: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Jivana: Yeah. No, I think it's really. It's exciting to challenge yourself and to. I mean, yoga's about the mind, so it's like, you know, you're bringing it to anything you do and it's fun to take on a challenging activity and see how you can deal with it. For me, at least, to, like, take on something new is really exciting. I think part of it is that my kids are older too. Like, both of my kids have moved out now. They're 24 and 20. And I just know that when they were younger, I didn't have time or space to do anything else, you know, like, I was just doing what I needed to do and taking care of them. But they're, like, moving away and I mean, they're still, you know, take a lot of my attention, but I think that gave me the space to. To really take on something like that. Yeah.

Jo: So I actually saw a post of yours on Instagram that I thought was really interesting, and it was about chakras and how the dominant understanding and especially the idea of, like, linking chakras to specific emotional states. It's mostly modern and Western, but they've been part of yogic physiology and meditation for thousands of years. And I did see that this is something that you explore in your accessible pranayama and meditation course. And I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Jivana: Yeah, that's a great question. I like that we're switching to yoga talk. Yoga topics. I mean, I think it's interesting to me how popular the idea of chakras are. I mean, I think it's. It just feels like sometimes. What is it? It's like we get carried away with it. It has this, like, kind of mystic. Mystical and mystic quality. Like, it seems like it's, like otherworldly. And so it's really cool that the yogis mapped those energy centres in the body. But I agree with what you said. I. Well, I guess I said it. You're quoting that. Yeah. I think the modern perception of yoga is just that. I think a lot of that was done in the last hundred years. A lot of that mapping of the chakras in terms of connecting them to emotions and like, to, like, these states of mind when really, I think what the yogis were doing? They were trying to open up the channels to get energy to move. I mean, there's really two main ways. Especially if you look at the Hatha Yoga, Prika, which is the source that I guess we're mostly still using for the energetic practises and the physical practises of yoga, there's really two main ways that energy. We want energy to move. One is up the spine, the other is to condense it in the solar plexus. But either way, it's about opening up these channels and clearing away the chakra. So that part is basically true. But. And. And there were mantras used. So it was really about the mantras that was the key to, like, stimulate these energy centres and get energy to open and move. But I feel like we kind of put on all this. And I can't remember her name. There's a famous.

Jo: Oh, Anadaya. Judith.

Jivana: Yeah, she's the one. She wrote that book and it just like shifted everything, you know? And I think it's interesting because I feel like I. I could. I do some of that myself. Like, I sometimes interpret teachings because I want them to be applicable to te. To people, and I think that's part of accessibility. But I try to be clear about it when it's an interpretation versus, like a specific translation or something. Do you know what I mean? So I feel like that's maybe where we go awry a bit. And I think that's happened with chakras is that we've shifted away from history to interpretation. And I just. I'll mention one more thing about it, which is that to me, there's something more useful and that is grantis. I don't know if you've heard of grantees. Grantees are the knots.

Jo: Locks, Right?

Jivana: Yeah. Or not nots. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because. Well, because the locks are connected to that. So they're these knots. There's three knots along the spine and they're basically about where energy is blocked. And that's what the yogis are really concerned about, is undoing these locks. And actually the. The three locks, the bandhas, right, that we do, are each associated with opening up one of these three knots. Does that make sense? So I think a lot of people practise. I think it's more applicable to our practise. Right. Like if you're actually a yoga practitioner and you're doing energetic practises, maybe you're doing. Using bandas in your practise and there is a sense of this opening that happens when you're doing bandhas. It's like, it's great to know what you're opening. And that's these grantees, these locks, and that's associated with, you know, being at the base of a spine, just below the heart and just below the third eye. So these are the three levels of awareness that we're trying to expand through our practise. And I think the band is our direct way of doing that, working with them. Because I feel like with chakras, I don't feel like, other than the mantras, I don't know if there's direct practises that we can use with the chakras other than visualising them or imagining things. Right. Yeah.

Jo: I feel like another potential issue when people map them with specific emotional states is it kind of puts people into boxes. So say someone comes in with tight hips. It would be a really classic old school yoga teacher response to be like, oh, that's your emotions, that's your trauma stored in your hips. So it's kind of like people put these diagnoses on people which take into account a whole lot of stuff that we don't know about people and assume that everyone's bodies respond to emotions in exactly the same way and, like, just take that as a given. Whereas, like, people's emotional bodies and especially their energetic bodies are all really unique and it's really their practise to explore what's happening for them rather than a teacher to just have this idea based on tight muscles.

Jivana: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Because I also think that that reminds me of just the general focus on healing that I think can go awry in, in yoga. I mean, I'm a yoga therapist, but I do think that even the concept of yoga therapy is a little bit incorrect in terms of really what's happening in yoga. It's just. It's not that we need to be fixed. You know, yoga is not about fixing, it's about recognition of our true nature, that we are already full and whole and complete and perfect the way we are. But we don't realise that. We don't remember. And so yoga is about reminding us of that. And I. And I don't think that happens necessarily through a process of, I don't know, diagnosis and, you know, like, fixing. I don't know what the word is, but, like, there's a word for that or we make it a condition. Right? Like, we make everything like something that has to be fixed. You mentioned my course, the. The pranayama and meditation course I'm teaching one of the main things That I think surprises people. I always start right by saying, or when I'm teaching pranayama, is that if you're breathing, you're doing it right. You know what I mean? Like, if you're breathing, you. You figured it out. Like, that's not what pranayama is about. It's not about making you breathe better or differently. It's an energetic practise to help awaken on a spiritual level. And I think to focus so much on fixing your breath, while there might be applications to that, that's like a side benefit, that's not really what the focus is. And I think we get a little bit conf. Confused and it can be disheartening to get, like, diagnosed as being bad at something, you know, And I feel like we've made leaps and bounds around asana, Right? Like, if someone that, you know, you can do the pose your own way. I think accessible yoga has helped in that regard, but I feel like around the subtle practises, there's still a lot of obstacles around that.

Jo: Absolutely, yeah. And also with meditation, because, like you were saying with asana, like, often there was this hierarchy of a pose that we're all aiming for. And then if you're using props to get there a different way, then, you know, sometimes the perception would be that you're not quite doing the full expression of the pose, which is a terrible expression. And, like, often I see that with meditation as well. Like, certain practises, like vipassana, are often seen as the real meditation, whereas other practises, like, say, listening to a guided track on your phone, are kind of seen as, like, lesser practises that you might start with as a beginner and then move on as you progress. Would you like to share your thoughts on making meditation more accessible?

Jivana: Well, that's the best and most important one, I think, that you just said, which is that this whole idea of a hierarchy is so messy. And I think. I do feel like I just said, like, it's. It seems like we've addressed it in asana a little bit, maybe because asana is so popular, but not in these other practises. And I. I'm currently writing a book about yoga meditation, and so I have a lot of. I have too many thoughts, so I'm. I'll. I'll refrain from going too far, but just saying that I agree with you. I think that there isn't a correct way to meditate, that if you're practising yoga, you're meditating. Right. They're. They're really almost one and the same. They're inseparable. Yoga and meditation. And so you can be meditating through asana or through breathing or through sitting quietly or through chanting or through walking or. You know what I mean? Like, there's just through. Through service. The yoga paths are incredibly diverse and that's what's so beautiful about yoga and this tradition is that we have so many choices and there's so many options and I think the goal is focus on, find the underlying themes or foundational teachings there and then figure out how that kind of flows into your life, like what works for you personally and that is enjoyable and effective for you and safe and. And do that, you know, rather than having to conform because your teacher told you to or like you said. Yeah, this seems like the. The real kind of meditation. I think that's where we get into trouble. I think yoga. Yoga tradition naturally makes meditation accessible, actually.

Jo: Yeah. And even I see sometimes, like, the more worldly benefits of meditation, like, say, sleeping better or feeling happier are often seen as, like, less worthy goals than enlightenment. But as soon as we attach any goal to meditation, it's going to change our experience. What's your perspective?

Jivana: That's such a great way putting it. I mean, I actually think I always want to go back to the original goals, like enlightenment, and really analyse them and reflect on them, because I think that is more respectful to the tradition to recognise why are we doing these things. At the same time, when we do that, I think it offers the other benefits. I think they arise naturally because I do think that we need to remember that yoga is a spiritual practise. And so if we think of enlightenment as just being with yourself, recognising your. Your essential spiritual nature and then seeing that in other people, I think that's the way that yoga actually defines enlightenment. I think then. Then it also brings about lowering your blood pressure, you know what I mean? And letting you sleep better. Because when you see yourself and others, you feel connected, you feel less isolated and you're, You're. When you feel love in your heart, you actually have more joy and then you get. Your body physically responds to that. So, like, I think the. Those benefits we're seeking flow from the really beautiful, more subtle aspects of these practises that we sometimes are afraid to talk about.

Jo: Yeah, beautiful. And actually to swing back to the sleep thing, I remember when Ryan was doing his meditation training, something his teacher said, which he passed on to me, which I've applied in my life ever since, is when you wake up at night and you can't get back to sleep. That's a really great time to meditate.

Jivana: It's always a good time to meditate. It just whatever works for you, you know, like whatever you enjoy doing and whatever's effective. But I just feel like it's great to have options. Yeah, I think. Yeah. I just think that moment when you wake up in the middle of the night, usually it's when all your anxieties come and all your fears, and I think it. It's a good time to remember your tools, that whatever you have. And that's meditation, could be. But I think for some people, when you say it like that, it feels really like, oh, no, I'm not gonna meditate that. But that means they just haven't found a comfortable way or. Right. What they like.

Jo: Can I share a really random. Woke up at night, can't get back to sleep practise. That's really working for me. This is like, for busy brains that need a little something to attach to, but not too much so you don't get into, like, you know, planning out the rest of your life from there. So it's like you go through the Alphabet and you think of a theme. Like, often I do animals, Sometimes I do fruit and vegetables. Sometimes I do, like, places in the world and do, like, a thing, you know, like, A is for apple, B is for banana, and I do a pranayama with that as well. Like, I try and inhale for a shorter time for the letter and then exhale for a longer time for the word. And that's really hitting the spot for me for, like, wake up in the night, give my brain a project.

Jivana: That's great. I've tried some of those. I don't. Usually I get too invested and I stay up to do the thing, the task, if I give it. And so I really focus on distracting myself. That's why I just like to think of something nice.

Rane: Sometimes you do need to just do.

Jivana: The thing and get it.

Jo: Like, get out of bed and do that thing that's on your mind.

Jivana: Yeah.

Rane: I was also wondering if, like. So for me, part of the. If I wake up in the middle of the night and part of the problem is actually remembering to. To come back to the meditation. But if you think of meditation as kind of remembering to come back to the awareness, it's sort of like, I don't know, this inception level of remembering.

Jivana: That's funny. Well, I think the good thing about waking up in the middle of the night is. And like, in a panic is I think then you actually are seeing the darkest part of yourself. And I think that's a real gift. You know, we don't need to push it away. I think recognising it and really being with it in some way, like, I don't. It doesn't happen to me much anymore, to be honest. I just. I feel like I. I worry about things a lot. I have, you know, I. I used to have diagnosed anxiety disorder, but it's just gotten so much better. I don't know what it is. Like, I think I'm just trying to let myself be with those thoughts. Like, okay, that's what I'm thinking. And then just like, be with it rather than, you know, necessarily push it away. I just don't want people to think that meditation is pushing away those thoughts. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Jo: You have that beautiful practise which is the. Yes. Meditation.

Jivana: That's exactly why I thought of that one, because I, you know, in the tradition I was trained in, you know, we were taught to control our minds and to use a mantra, which is the most traditional yoga practise that we have. But the thing about using a mantra is you can't use a mantra as a way of forcing your mind into compliance. That is not effective, at least from my mind, because my. I'm very rebellious and my mind is sneaky. And I think most of us are similar. So it's like. It's about loving the mantra, loving the practise and enjoying it and then recognising that the mind naturally wanders and that's what it's for. That's literally like. The power of the mind is to be, like, creative and spontaneous. It's an amazingly beautiful thing.

Jo: Yeah, it's a bit of a flip side because I also have very creative wandering mind. And sometimes it's like you wake up in the middle of the night and that's when you get your best ideas. It's so tempting to, like, plan that elaborate project.

Jivana: I get great ideas in the midnight. Sometimes I get. My mind does it in meditation. And this is where I think there's some tension because I do think sometimes, maybe some people listening. If you've learned meditation, you know, traditionally that's not the time to let your mind wander and have creative thoughts. But I have to say I enjoy that part too. Like, I don't mind if I get a great idea in meditation. It's okay. Like, I'll think about it. It's all right. And I'm not going to. Creativity is spirituality to Me, there's something really powerful about creative, that creative energy, right. That I want that. So I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna force that down. But I don't know, I guess what I'm just saying is like, I think meditation can be about creating a, a mutually respectful relationship with your own mind. So rather than seeing it as a problem and I've learned that just from parenting, I think it's just changed the way I meditate having kids. Yeah.

Jo: Yeah, I love that description.

Rane: We are very excited to announce the dates for Jibina's upcoming in person Australian accessible Yoga trainings. Melbourne will run from April 25 to 27, 2026 at the Yoga Spot in Fairfield and the Byron Bay training will go from May 1st to the 3rd at Byron Yoga Retreat Centre. This 40 hour training includes 15 hours of in person instruction with Jivana and 25 hours of self paced pre recorded online lectures, practises, resources and homework tasks. You'll learn to design yoga classes where all students can practise together in a way that honours and celebrates people of all ages, sizes, abilities and experience levels. Plus access guest teacher modules on yoga philosophy, the science of yoga, race and equity in yoga, creating queer and trans affirming spaces, mental health and more. Jo and I love doing this training online with Jivana during the lockdowns and Jo is delighted to be assisting Jivina in the Melbourne train training. We can't recommend this training enough. If you enjoy listening to our podcast, you think you'll love it too. Head to the links in our show notes to find out more.

Jo: To swing back to your training in Australia. Like we're so excited about it and me and Ron did your training online during the lockdowns and that was a wonderful experience and very helpful during those times. What can people expect from the in person training? Like how is it different to what you're offering online?

Jivana: That's a good question. I think about that a lot actually because I always want to have, I want to give everyone everything I can and so like when I have students who join me online, I want them to have the full experience. But it is different. I think there's benefits to both. I think the in. The benefit of the in person training is just that being together. Like there's really nothing more beautiful to me than being together with a group of like dedicated yoga practitioners and especially yoga teachers. And that's why I do what I do because I love to be with yoga teachers so much and there's just like a, I don't know, a Sense of community and, and, and a support for our practise. So, like, practising together feels really nice. Like to just be in a group and doing that, that feels different than being online. Don't you think that. I mean, haven't you found that?

Jo: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Like the, the nervous system, group energy thing is so different when you're in a room with other people versus looking at a screen.

Jivana: Yeah. And part of it is like I get. I find in person that people impact me more. Like when I'm online. I mean, I really do follow the chat when I'm teaching these days and that can really draw me in. But, but I want, I want that. I want my teaching to be relational, so I don't want to just do a lecture. I have like half the course is pre recorded so that people can watch that stuff. But like the time that we're live, either online or in person, I want that to be interactive so that's easier in person. Like people asking questions and then like literally responding to those, to how I respond. You know what I mean? Like, it becomes more of a give and take in person. That's really nice.

Jo: Absolutely. And especially when you're thinking about different options, just being able to look around the room and seeing all of these different bodies doing things in different ways, I think it's a little bit easier because if you're doing your practise and there's a screen, I tend to tune out a bit from the screen and just kind of be in my own space. But when you're all physically in the space together, it's a little bit easier to get the best of both worlds. To kind of have your own experience but also be aware of the other people around you.

Jivana: Yeah. And I. And we mostly do that. Most of the half of the training that's live is like the asana portion mostly where we look at adapting, practise. Because I think for that reason it's great to see people doing different options in person. It's really effective and I offer a lot of challenges during the training. So it's fun to like, see what people do. Yeah. I mean, I love teaching in person. It's really fun and inspiring to me because I learned something every time from the people who join me. So I'm really, I'm really looking forward to it.

Jo: Quick question. Who is this training for? Like, do people already need to be trained yoga teachers to attend?

Jivana: I mean, I am teaching for yoga teachers mostly. Like, that's the. The bulk of the content is around teaching, but There's a lot. I do often get people who are experienced practitioners who are just wanting to deepen their practise. I find it's often. Yeah, just all different kinds of. Either people who are thinking about taking teacher training, people who just graduated, or even some more experienced teachers. But to me it's. What I always say in the beginning of the course is that I'm not asking people to let go of whatever they know. Like sometimes I've been to trainings where I was told to have a blank slate or something.

Jo: Be the empty cup.

Jivana: Oh my God. Yeah. That just feels impossible to me because I feel like, you know, people bring their wisdom and their life experience and I want them to. And so I want people to come with everything they have and we just look at practising for ourselves, but also all the different ways we can share yoga with anyone who's interested. So I'm trying to give teachers, yoga teachers tools to make the practises work for all their students. And so there's a lot of adapting, not just asana, but also pranayama, meditation, yoga philosophy and teaching trolls, like teaching mixed level chair and mat classes. Because I'm kind of obsessed with that idea that you can practise, you know, integrated classes where not everyone is doing the exact same thing. So like talking about how to do that. Yeah. And in a way also it's a lot of. It's trauma informed teaching. There's a big overlap for me with accessible yoga and trauma. Trauma informed practise around power. In particular, people's innate agency, trying to figure out how to teach in a way that allows us to impart information and experience, but also to protect that quality that, that of choice and. Yeah, and consent. A really make sure that people are consenting to engage in each practise in the way that works for them and to recognise that as a yoga practise in itself and to try to. Maybe it's. This is what I'm trying to say, to teach that in a way that's an alignment with the yoga teachings, you know, which is like ahimsa number one. So not harming. Right, that's ahimsa not harming anyone, but not harming them, not only physically but also like emotionally making sure that they feel welcome and respected and included and that they have choice and control of that situation. To me, that's a. That's what's lacking in a lot of yoga, I think, is that we don't, we don't follow our own rules in the way we teach. You Know what I mean?

Jo: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's a really powerful aspect of that as well, where it's not just giving people to make the decision about what's best for them, but also giving them the tools to tune in to what is happening for them and decide from there. Because often if someone does have a trauma history, like interoception, like, feeling inwards is really challenging. So even just providing people with a safe space to start to work with that is really powerful.

Jivana: Yeah, yeah, let me talk about that. Because. Right. It's not simply using invitational language that it doesn't just end there. Right. Like, that's one piece you want to offer invitation, but not. But it can be too much. So you also have to find a balance with that. And clear, concise teaching in cueing and sequencing that is actually very straightforward. So people who are new to the practise don't feel like confused or overwhelmed by all these questions you're asking them. I mean, I've been to classes where every single cue, every single instruction is a question. And to me, as a student, that is just really hard. I found that to be like, quote, advanced. You know what I mean? Like, I. I don't want to demand that of people right away.

Jo: And sometimes it can just be so many words coming at you that you've even forgotten the beginning of the sentence by the time you get to the end of that long invitational question with many options.

Jivana: And I. So this is like a little thing for me, but also sometimes don't know when is the practise starting? Are you giving me, like an introduction or. We're already doing it. Do you know what I mean? Like, next we're going to be doing this post. Like, wait, are we doing the pose yet? Or are you just. Are you talking about it? Like, I don't know. So that's part of it is language, queuing, sequencing, trying to, like, get some of those essential teaching tools clarified. You know, one of the things I always wonder is, are you using first person or second or third person language? Like, I am doing this. Like, I'm lengthening my spine into cobra. Right. That's one way. Or like. Or you, like, as you could say, now you do this, or as a command, like, lengthen your spine. Or you can say, we now we're lengthening our spines. You know, there's like very. There's a lot of different choices in English at least, and the ways that we speak to people and the ways we teach yoga. And I think a conscious. There needs to be Consciousness on the part of the yoga teacher about those choices. Yeah.

Jo: And so to kind of keep thinking about trauma informed yoga today, like it's been really interesting to see how much more widely known it is today and like actually how commercialised a lot of trauma informed practises become. Like, kind of seems like really big business now. And I see you asking the question, like, are we using trauma informed yoga to sustain oppressive systems instead of trying to dismantle them? And like, are we in danger of actually creating more problems for people when we pathologize what's actually a healthy nervous system response to hostile conditions?

Jivana: Yeah, that is such a great question. I think that, that reminds me about, we talked about earlier. We're talking about the focus on healing. I think this is a similar idea. Trauma informed teaching to me feels very much like yoga therapy. It feels like things that we use to try to like soothe people and to get them to be okay with a really impossible situation rather than acknowledging that it's hard, like, or, or maybe, maybe it's both. So I don't think it, I don't think that trauma informed teaching or yoga therapy or bad or wrong, like I do both of them. But I do think it's important to acknowledge that like exactly what you said, that the systems don't work. And so for marginalised folks, it's not enough to just give them that, those tools. I think it feels disingenuous to me. Right. It's like half the story. Rather than acknowledging that, you know, life is challenging, you know, like right now in the us, such vicious attacks on trans people. So for trans students, I feel like there has to be another level of, you know, just awareness and speaking it or just recognising the challenge that's going on. Otherwise it feels, yeah, it feels like we're complicit and is that what you meant? Because I think it's, again, it's a beautiful question really, and I think it.

Jo: Is like I feel like at the heart of trauma informed teaching, it's the acknowledgement that we all have different lives and we're all going to respond to different practises in different ways. And so there is just no one size fits all way of doing things that's going to be helpful for everyone. It is that process of everyone's own experience and everyone finding their own way and finding the practises that are going to be helpful for them at that time and giving people space to do that.

Jivana: Yeah, that's really great. My book, Yoga Revolution, I don't know if you read that one.

Jo: But, oh, yeah, I loved it.

Jivana: I really, in that book, I really tried to focus on this question, which is that the subtitle is Building A Practise of Courage and Compassion. And what I was trying to get at, it was just like two different ideas, which is that yoga can make. Can give us power. Yoga does give you power. It gives us access to prana. I mean, that's the whole point, actually, is that piece. Which is why ethics are so important, right? So you, like, refine that so it doesn't get abused. I think for marginalised folks in particular, like anyone who's suffering, maybe you've had trauma or you are oppressed because of your race or gender, sexuality or whatever it is, like your immigration or your, you know, your. Your nationalities and whatever, for whatever reason you're being oppressed. I think that we need to allow and support those people with yoga to build power, like to literally give them back this, what's been taken away. But for those of us that have privilege, and often it's a combination in each of us, right? Like, I'm a white, you know, gay man, so it's like, I have a lot of privilege, but then on the one hand, I don't like in the area of my sexuality. So I think we're regarding my privilege. I have to look at compassion, using the practise in a slightly different way, which is not to just build more power, but rather to actually learn to see myself in others. And so I. I mean, what I ask people to do in that book is to first reflect on their positionality of, like, what is your individual position in the world and where do you hold power and where do you not, and how can you support yourself? You should feel like you need it and how can you give away what you don't need? You know what I'm saying? Like, how can you find that balance for yourself in your practise? So your practise. Because even though I just said yoga is about building power, ultimately it's about using that power in the service of humanity, of the world. So it's about building power and then giving it away. And where do you. Where are you along that spectrum, right, of like, are you still building, you really need support? Or are you in a place where you can actually give it away? Does that make sense?

Jo: Yeah, absolutely. And then I guess it's that the challenge as well, of, say, someone is living in an emergency situation and, you know, that's their nervous system response, like, they're very stressed. So coming to yoga for some peace of mind and for mental health reasons. But when we share these practises, not sharing them in a way of like, oh, this is a skill that you lack. This is something that you need to learn. But as you have been saying, it's like this is within you and just giving people the space to tap into that.

Jivana: Yeah, yeah. And people that are okay, I think, need to do more. Like, I feel like there's not enough conversation around that, around service and that ultimately that's the. The end result of your practise is service. It's not just about feeling better. If you need it to feel better, fine. But once you're feeling better, then what the heck are you doing?

Jo: And sometimes service is a way of feeling better in what feels like a broken world because you can do a little something to help, right?

Jivana: And it could just be that. It could just mean supporting others in small ways, being nice to your neighbours or picking up trash or calling someone because they're on your mind and asking how they're doing or reaching out in some other way, offering your energy whatever form it takes. And I think, like I said, if you built all this energy in your practise, the question for me, for all yoga practitioners, is, what are you doing with that energy? And I always say it, literally every yoga class, I think, needs to end with that question. Because if you spend an hour, an hour and a half, building your prana in a yoga class, the teacher, I think, is responsible for asking their students to reflect on how are they using the prana and energy they built in that time. Dedication. That's why I'd say we should all. There should be some dedication at the end of every yoga practise, either your home practise or in a yoga class, what are you dedicating yourself to? Because if you don't do that, by the way, what's going to happen? Like I said, if you need the energy for you, that's fine, that's okay. I'm the. That's totally allowed. Like, people that need energy, you know, because you have. Maybe you're disabled, you're an older person or you're just feeling bad today, dedicated to yourself, like, that's 100% great. But, like, do it consciously, because I feel like what happens without that is that it just builds our ego, builds our. Builds what's already in the mind, right? And if without the structure, but without strong ethics and with a powerful yoga practise, these, these practises are tremendously powerful. I think that you end up, just building up what's already happening in people's lives and in their minds and that's not necessarily helpful.

Jo: And so that kind of leads me to. It's like the inverse, but also the same as what you're saying, which is self doubt. Because I loved reading your letter to your younger self celebrating 30 years of yoga teaching. And I know that self doubt is something that many wonderful teachers suffer from and it's definitely not a reflection of ability. And I feel like it's two sides of the same coin what you're saying about building up what's already inside you, like an ego thing. And self doubt is like, can be a shell around that or like an armour.

Jivana: Yeah, so I, I agree. I, I would talk about my own shyness, you know, that was very shy when I was younger and I think that shyness is a big ego and we don't realise that, you know, it's like not, it's because it's obsessed with other people's opinions of you, you know, and like being shy because you're afraid of what they might say or, or people, it's like a people pleasing tendency. And I think that's also egotistical rather than, you know, being of service. Being of service is the opposite of not being egotistical. It's actually loving and caring and sharing generously. And I, I think, yeah, like what I was saying before about courage and compassion, like if you need courage, that's what yoga is for. And I think the yoga teachers out there who feel insecure, who have imposter syndrome, they're probably the ones who actually need to be teaching. So I hope they'll be, they'll take yoga, their practise, as a way of building themselves up. You know, those are the people who we need as leaders in the yoga world and they are the ones who will have students who need to see them. You know what I mean? Like, if you feel like you're not able to do all the poses, if you're not the perfect image of a yoga practitioner, you're like the perfect person to be a yoga teacher. You know what I mean? More of you. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I, I don't know, I think that's a lot of what accessible yoga is to me, is to try to shift that understanding away from this idea of a perfected being, to recognise that we all share that, we all share that. Some essential, I don't know, that spirit, that's the element, the essential element of yoga and we need to make it less. I Don't know. What's the word? You know, like, what am I trying to say? You know, like it's only for some. Exclusive. Feels like yoga is still very exclusive and that's not helping anyone. Yeah.

Jo: I was talking to a guy at a party once and he was telling me how he'd done his yoga teacher training 10 years ago, but he still hadn't started teaching yet because he wanted to be a bit further along in his practise because it felt disrespectful to teach yoga where he was at. And it's like you learn by doing.

Jivana: Yeah.

Jo: Like, you don't reach this perfected state in your yoga practise where suddenly you are the teacher. Like, you have to practise being a teacher.

Jivana: Yeah, it is. It is a practise. I mean, yoga teaching is an amazing practise. I think that's the other thing. If you take it that way, then it shifts the whole meaning of being a teacher. Like, if you think of teaching as already being perfect, then none of us are ready. You know what I mean?

Jo: Yeah, yeah. It's just like 10 years building this pedestal for yourself that you'll never.

Jivana: Right. It's a practise. It's just another thing. It's just like another form of service. And I teach, but so I can learn. I mean, I'm always learning by teaching. Like just repeating the same thing over and over and over. That's how my. That's how I learned it.

Jo: And if you kind of go into it feeling like you have to have all the answers, then, like, that's just a big trap.

Jivana: Well, yeah. What a trap. Yeah, yeah, that's a problem. I know it's hard. Like I said, it's the people who don't think that they should be teaching that probably should be.

Jo: So I guess this kind of swings us back to, like, the whole idea of accessible yoga. And this might be a bit of a concluding thought because, like we're saying, we've spoke to you back in 2019 and the awareness of accessible yoga has increased so much, but often it's accessible asana and a way to adapt the practise in a physical way. And it's something that you do talk about online and in your books, like, what do you think accessible yoga really is beyond that? Okay, sorry, big question.

Jivana: Yeah, beyond. You mean beyond asana? Is that what you're saying?

Jo: Yeah, yeah. Like, often it just seems like there's a limited perception of what accessible yoga means and it can be so much more expansive.

Jivana: It can Be more expensive. So you mean regarding meditation and all the other practises, or you mean and.

Jo: Even just how it can make these philosophies of yoga, which humans have needed for thousands of years, accessible to people today to draw from?

Jivana: Yeah, I mean, I. I think to me, maybe, yeah, it goes back to that, what we were talking about earlier, that yoga is a spiritual practise. And, you know, in classical yoga, which is the yoga of Patanjali, and what we're mostly talking about, you know, the idea is that there we're human, we have this experience of being, being in a body. And that's true, but we also have our spiritual nature. That's. That's the. The real part of us, the part that's like eternal and unchanging. And so we have these two sides, the part that's always changing the body and mind, and the part that's never changing, which is spirit. And, you know, Patanjali is basically telling us that yoga is a practise of remembering that you're eternal spirit and not misidentifying or not getting confused and thinking you're just this body and mind. You are body and mind, but it's not all you are. You have this other eternal part. And I think it's a matter of faith. Like, to me, it builds faith. Builds faith, but also takes faith maybe to have that. And I think faith comes through practise. That yoga practise. If you have a regular practise, it's like you're reminding yourself every day that that's true, that there's part of you that's okay no matter what. And then, you know, life is challenging. So isn't it nice to have that reminder that you're okay, that part of you is eternal and unchanged, unaffected by what's going on? I mean, it's unaffected. No matter what's happening to your body and mind or whatever experience you're having, there's a part of you that is okay. And I think we all deserve that. So ultimately, I think the goal of accessible yoga is to try to make that message more available and to touch more people. I honestly just feel like it's the people who don't have access who need to hear that the most. Ironically, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like the message of yoga is actually needed mostly by the people that aren't practising and that are just so busy in their lives just trying to survive and take care of their families or take care of themselves and, you know, because they're disabled or they have huge responsibility or whatever it is. They're probably the last ones who end up going to yoga, you know, so, like, how can we share a message of hope and, and help people have faith in that and find some, like. What's the word? Like, just release in that understanding without forcing them to do some intense physical practise that they may not ever want to do or may never do? Right. Like, how do we share that?

Jo: Yeah, that's really beautiful. And that's such a powerful life mission.

Jivana: Yeah, right. I mean, I hope that's a m. Mission for all yoga teachers, you know, is to share what they love about yoga. So that's what I love about it and I want to share that with others.

Jo: And I think the way that you just shared that was a really beautiful way of sharing the spirituality of the practise, but not as it relates to religion. Because I saw also on your social media someone posing a question about how do we make these practises accessible for people from all different faiths while still honouring like the truth or the heart of what yoga is, while not just making it physical poses so that it won't cause an internal rift if someone has their own spirituality that seems different to yoga and the way that you just explained that it's so encompassing of so many other beliefs while still so yoga.

Jivana: But it's hard for me, I think the greatest irony of humanity is this question actually that religion, which to me is, when I think of it on the spiritual side or spirituality, is about removing our suffering and, and simultaneously making us feel connected with each other and with nature. That those teachings are often used to divide people, especially in more fundamentalist traditions, like any fundamentalist religion is really about separation. And that feels really, and I use the word ironic, but it's much deeper than that. It's like deeply painful to think that spiritual, spiritual teachings have been used to divide people. And I mean, I. That doesn't directly answer your question. I mean, I think. I think what I said earlier is really helpful to try to focus on more of the general benefits of yoga, to try to attract people who are in a religion. But I just wanted to make that statement that for me, I think one of the biggest, biggest obstacles of humanity is fundamentalism in general. And I think it's an expression of our ego mind. And so in a yoga, in the yoga tradition, which is not a religion, I mean, you can practise yoga as a religion if you want to, but yoga itself is not a religion. It's a very broad group of Spiritual practises that offer non sectarian ways of accessing spiritual realisations, which is why it's so amazing. I don't think there's any conflict between the yoga teachings and other religions in, in, in, in their heart. But I think the conflict comes when we find that when we take on a religion as a really closed group of beliefs that have to be followed in a particular way. And what's so great, if you look at again if you're, if you're following yoga, classical yoga through Patanjali, if you look at what he says about how to practise, it's just so open minded, like it's just so inspiring to me all the time to read the sutras, a meditation or he talks about choosing different objects for meditation. He says in different sections he talks about it many times but in, in chapter one he talks about overcoming the obstacles to enlightenment through meditation and he offers chanting Om, which is of course the main meditation practise in yoga is mantra. But then he offers so many other things. He talks about working with your breath, observing your breath, talks about connecting with the effulgent light within you. He says another option is to meditate on a beautiful dream that you've had or a vision you've had or to meditate on your teacher and on their mind of your teacher or a saint, a saintly being. And he goes on, there's even more. I can't remember what the others are but it just feels like. Or then he says, or anything that's uplifting, like just. I think that's right there. I think it's not a religion, you know, like he's anything that's uplifting. So it's like right in a religion you have to do it a particular way. And that's not what he's saying. That's not what classical yoga teaches.

Rane: So I guess we're at our last question now and we've asked you this a couple of times already. So I guess I'm just wondering with everything that you've learned and you've taught just in the last few years since we last spoke to you, if you could distil everything down to one core essence. And this question is suddenly sounding very pithy to me, if you could distil it down to one core essence, what do you think that one thing would be?

Jivana: Well, I feel like we just talked about it in a sense, but I, I be happy to share something else I was going to say which is to look at the Bhagavad Gita as another source, because I've talked quite a bit about Patanjali today, and I think the other source we have in I would still call it classical yoga traditions is the Gita, which. And the Gita you could think of as really a summary of a lot of the previous teachings that came. I mean, both of them are. But the Gita has a lot of the Upanishads in it and a lot of the Vedic teachings are there. And the Gita has three definitions of yoga. So I can give those three as what I. You know, because we have. In the Yoga Sutras, we have yoga chit cha for Tina Roha, Restraint or quieting of the mind is yoga. But then there's three other phrases that stand out from the Gita as potential definitions of Yoga. One is equanimity of mind is yoga, which is similar to what Patanjali says. Then the other is that skill in action, which is, to me is that service piece. Right? Like conscious. Conscious use of our energy, I think is what it's getting at. And the last piece is stopping identification with the part of us that's suffering. So in the end of suffering, in a way, is what it's talking about. So I don't know. I guess I would just. That was a very roundabout way of answering you. Sorry, but working with our own mind. So I'll just like, I'm just gonna go through them quickly and just say, like, to me, it's saying working with your own mind, becoming your. Your own friend, your own ally, Right? Like being an ally to your own self so that you can consciously decide and how are you going to use the energy you have in the world? Right? So you have skill in the way that you behave and act for your own best interest and for the interest of everyone so that you can remove your own suffering and the suffering of others. I think that's what the yoga teachings are trying to share with us. Is that okay?

Jo: Yeah. That's wonderful. Thank you so much. Sorry for, like, hitting you with all the. Make a summary of the most expansive life questions you can think about.

Jivana: Well, I mean, I think about it all the time, so I'm. I'm very happy that you asked me. Those were, like, by the way, just such incredible questions that you have. I enjoyed that so much. I feel like I could do this with you every day to get me to really think. I hope I didn't talk too much. I feel like I said a lot.

Jo: But no, no, we love it and we, like, it's such a privilege to have this space where we can talk to people who like, really inspire Virus and to kind of go into these really big questions. Like, it's such a privilege. And thank you so much for your time and energy, both in everything that you've shared today, but everything that you do, your wonderful books, like you personally, have just enhanced my yoga understanding so much and it's a real joy to be able to, like, share that with other people as well.

Jivana: Well, thank you. Thank you both. That was really fun. What are you going to say, Ra?

Rane: I was just going to say I'm.

Jivana: Going to go on a little bit.

Rane: Longer now, but I guess every time we do speak with you every. Every few years is for me, it's kind of like a powerful reminder of where I would like to be at in the world.

Jivana: So.

Rane: Yeah. Thank you so much.

Jivana: It's. Yeah, it's awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for saying that. Well, it's great being with you again and I look forward to seeing you in person. Yes. When I come to Australia. Very excited.

Jo: Yes.

Jivana: Too.

Rane: We hope you enjoyed our conversation with Jivana. We've included the links for the upcoming chair yoga trainings in our show notes. We're going to be taking a summer break, so our first episode back will be on February 2, 2026, and we're launching into the new year with an Ask Us Anything episode. So please reach out if you have a question for us and we hope you have a great Christmas and New Year's celebration. For more content and updates, updates, you can find me on Instagram as @ranelovesyoga and Jo can be found at @gardenofyoga. We love connecting with our listeners, so don't hesitate to reach out and share your thoughts. We'd like to express our gratitude to our wonderful Patreon supporters and to Go Soul for generously granting us permission to use their track Baby Robots as our theme song. Be sure to check out ghostsoul.bandcamp.com to discover more more of their incredible music. Once again, thank you so much for spending your precious time with us. Sending you big, big love.